Fear as Fuel and Being More Aware of Yourself with Matt Strunk
Fear of failure, working hard, grinding it out – all can lead you to success. But at what cost? What comes after financial success? Podcast guest Matt Strunk shares his own experience and what he found out about himself once he stopped to think about what matters most to him. Listen as Ben and Matt discuss the importance of gaining awareness about what drives us, thinking about your own obituary, and then being more intentional with your time.
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction to A/B Conversations
0:29 Meet the Guest: Matt Strunk
1:35 Matt’s Entrepreneurial Journey
4:00 The Role of Fear in Success
5:57 Reevaluating Life and Business
10:18 Gaining Awareness and Alignment
19:07 Practical Tips for Self-Discovery
22:49 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Listen on Spotify:
Watch the Full Episode on YouTube:
Adam Werner: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome to AB Conversations, where we will help you CFP your way out of it. A podcast where you get into the minds of a couple certified financial planners on how we think and feel about everyday financial planning questions, and what should really matter most to you. A healthier financial life starts now.
Ben Haas: All right. Welcome everybody. AB Conversations joined by special guest today, Matt Strunk. Matt, I'll introduce you as entrepreneur. I know you founded Lead Digital Marketing Agency but let's be real, you've bought, you've sold, you've bought, you've invested, you've pretty much worn every hat, I guess we could say that an entrepreneur can wear.
So, you're gonna be a wealth of knowledge today, now helping other entrepreneurs as a coach, strategic partner in things, just all around thoughtful guy. So, super glad that you agreed to come on today, Matt. Thanks for thanks for giving some time.
Matt Strunk: Absolutely. [00:01:00] Thanks for having me looking forward to it.
Ben Haas: So I'll set the stage a little bit. Really just pull back the curtain. You and I were having a conversation just a couple weeks ago. How we, in different ways, but maybe also in similar ways, try to help people through big life transitions. Specifically your perspective selling business. Again, it's gonna apply in many different ways.
We can talk about life, we can talk about business, we can talk about money, but how often fear just shows up. Usually in a big way during those times. So let's talk about it today. You know how that can push us in good directions, sometimes bad but the role that it plays and maybe the best place to start, if you're willing I'll throw you the softball here.
Tell us your story. You know, what led you and I jumping onto this conversation today?
Matt Strunk: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Man, where's the start? I guess to really start, you probably have to start back when I was like 18 years old and started my first company, which was an e-commerce business.
Yeah. And all I knew at the time was I didn't want to work somewhere, so I don't wanna just start a business. And man, I had no clue what I was doing, but I started e-commerce business. [00:02:00] And, you know, I still remember feeling like, wow, this is it, man. Like, it was that easy. Like it's a drop shipping business.
People are gonna buy these products, it's gonna automatically ship out and I'm gonna be set for life. And yeah, it didn't work that way. 'cause then I realized you need to do marketing to get people to go to your business. So then I started learning about that and, you know, fast forward a while and I started a digital marketing company back in 2015, which is I think where a lot of this really started.
And I was so driven for that to not be a failure. And I remember, you know, at that stage in my life, I had just gotten outta the military or transitioning out. You know, I was, I think dating my now wife, I was in great shape. Like I was just in a good place and I was like, I'm gonna put everything into this business.
And we scaled quickly over the next several years. You know, we were doing seven figures in our second full year, I think. And we just grinded like you see on the internet, you know, 15 hour days, all that kind of jazz. I ended up starting a second company outta that 'cause like, Hey, why the hell not something?
Yeah why not? Yeah. And then it kind of all came to a head, I'd say [00:03:00] right after COVID maybe. And, you know, I was at a place where I did all of this. I would've told you to get freedom. I wanted freedom of time and all these things. Sure. Right. But I'd probably tell you, I, I built a prison instead, you know, like in a, in an ironic way.
I built like this big business, strong word that, yeah. Yeah. And I was just burned out. I don't think I knew at the time that I was burned out. It was just this isn't it anymore, you know? But yeah, fortunately I ended up selling those companies and then like you had suggest or said I've bought a company since then.
I've started a couple other companies, and throughout all of that, eventually I had to just stop and like, what am I doing? Like I'm just kind of flailing around at this point. And I never really stopped to reassess why am I doing this? You know?
Ben Haas: Yeah. I think it takes a special person to. Take those leaps of faith at the beginning of the process anyway.
But I've, I mean, I talked to you, I follow you. I've heard you say like at some point you like looked in the mirror and you're like, who is this guy? Like what was [00:04:00] it all for? Right. So I'm kind of curious as we talk about fear of maybe not having the identity is what you got to, but like, how have you really like leaned into or maybe as you were scaling things, how were you leaning into the fear in a good way that was clearly leading you to the place you are today where, you know, by maybe societal's like definition of these things, you've had success, like you've done great things but maybe you're not feeling as fulfilled.
So how, let's start with the good. How did fear at least, like, get you to that spot?
Matt Strunk: I think this concept of fear as fuel, I think is a really real concept because when I look back and I reevaluate everything, I was very much driven from a place of fear, you know, and it could be something like fear of failing in business, but also like, even more personal than that, like, a fear of not being enough or a fear of, you know, proving people that maybe thought poorly of me that they were right.
You know, like all these people I needed to show up and [00:05:00] teach them. Like, let me show you what I am capable of. And that you almost could think of it like a chip on the shoulder, right? Sure. And that chip drives you. I mean, it's incredibly I don't wanna say motivating, but it definitely drives you forward.
It keeps you up late. It helps you make that 37th cold call, even though the last five people told you to pound sand. Right. It helps you drive forward for sure. So I would say I was driven by fear very much so for years and years. Unknowingly though I wouldn't have told you that back then. I could tell you that now in hindsight.
And it worked to grow an incredible business and to achieve all those external milestones. But the problem with fear is a fuel is there's a cost to it. Right? Right. It's not sustainable in my experience. There are costs to using fear as well, but it can certainly get you somewhere from A to B in a quick timely way.
Ben Haas: I mean, they call it the grind for a reason. Like Yeah. At some point that grind goes wrong.
Matt Strunk: Yeah.
Ben Haas: So then let's flip the script a little bit [00:06:00] as you're kind of identifying, Hey this led me to maybe certain definitions of success, but I'm really not feeling fulfilled. What then? What happened then on your journey?
Matt Strunk: Yeah. Well I think I, I had to pause because I was going through these motions of things that I thought I was supposed to do, you know, like starting businesses 'cause that's what I've done for all this time. And I never really stopped to like, reassess. What the hell? Why am I doing this at all? Mm-hmm.
You know, and again, like fear drives you and it can get you somewhere, but it's not always in alignment with what you're trying to achieve. I mean, we talk about fulfillment or happiness or whatever else, like yeah, there's a lot more in life than just making more money or just doing those things. And there's nothing wrong with that, making money.
The thing I realized was getting very real and clear about what was driving my actions. Reassessing, if that's actually aligned with what I want in my life anymore. Does it align with my values anymore? Like things change. You know, I started the business, [00:07:00] I was essentially single. Now I have two children and a wife.
Right? All these things. So, I think it's important to stop and reassess those things and you know, figure out what really matters. You know? And I think for me, I realized that I was doing these productive things. I felt like it's what I had to do. It felt wrong or lazy almost to take time off or to stop or, you know, and like once you hit the milestone, you just punt it along until you get to the next milestone and you punt that along.
And, yeah, so I think the other side of the coin is like listening to yourself and actually stopping, reassessing what is important to you, and then looking to see if your actions are aligned with that. And if they're not, then it's possibly worth looking at making some changes. Which has helped me out a lot, you know, to kind of work towards more of a purpose than to just do things because I think I'm supposed to, or because society has said I should do those things, you know?
Ben Haas: And I wonder, I mean, your perspective on this, I wonder how much of this is, it's somewhat of a natural [00:08:00] curve.
I mean, you've, you and I have had these conversations like I'm a big believer that money's just a tool to live life you wanna live. So if you've kind of gotten yourself to the point where you have some resources at your disposal, it's a perfect time to like have that gut check.
Like, what am what's truly gonna drive me? If building wealth is clearly a goal that many of us have to, it has to be to live the life that we wanna live. But if I'm asking people that it's not, you know, X, Y, Z things. It's, I want freedom of time. Like I, I want to have those experiences with my kids. Like it's leading to those more tangible things that money can allow you the freedom to do.
But maybe the grind was a really good thing to get you to that point, but I just, I imagine there's a lot of people out there like you that maybe don't know when that tipping point is before it's a little too late, where anxiety, setting in fears, bringing in the bad stuff, the grind has really taken you to a not healthy place.
Matt Strunk: Yeah, that's well said. That's something I've actually been exploring as well, is I'm like, it's almost like a privilege of [00:09:00] the success to then be able to realize this isn't what I want to do anymore. Like, like you're saying, maybe that's a prerequisite of sorts where you have to go through that process, you know?
And if you're in a really bad place or you're trying to really, like, you know, like myself, I grew up poor. I never had money. Like, so to get from where I was to where I needed to go, perhaps I needed to run on that fuel source. Perhaps that's what I needed to get to the next level. But to your point, I think when you hit burnout and all these other things, like you're a little late on reassessments and everything, you know.
Ben Haas: Is there a process, and maybe this is where coaching comes into play. Is there a process that there's a more natural check-in to, you know, how are we doing here? Because we see it, it's not I realize we're talking maybe entrepreneurs, people that have to put in a lot to get to success. When you're running a business and when other people, you're responsible for other people you're serving clients, you're doing all these things.
It's probably no different than we talk to people that are in a job that they just don't wanna be in anymore. Like, it's not serving them. They may be making great money, but now they're. Use it in a different way. They're fearful of making a [00:10:00] change that may serve them personally, emotionally, their family, their relationships, but they're, you know, fear stops them from doing something different because they're not really thinking about, well, what is gonna serve me and what are the dominoes good or bad, that I can maybe play out with somebody that could coach me through that.
Matt Strunk: Exactly. Yeah. And I think, I mean, that's it. I think it's about gaining awareness, right? I mean, at the end of the day, I think that's what we're talking about is just gaining awareness. Of why we do the things we do. You know, you talk about someone who's been in a career for so long and maybe they're not feeling it anymore.
It's so easy to, you know, sunk cost fallacy and all those things you think, I can't make, I've been doing this for 20 years. Like, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna go like, save trees now or something. Like, it doesn't have to be that, but you get the idea. It just sounds ridiculous. Dismiss it, move on. Like, I can't do that.
And I think if we raise awareness around what's driving that thought process. You, once you start peeling back the onion, you might start realizing that it's not necessarily [00:11:00] logical, you know, or It's just what you think you should do, you know? We talk about, money should serve you to live the life you wanna live.
You had said, you know, and so much of that is freedom, right? But then how much money is enough freedom?
Ben Haas: Yeah. Right. Enough. Great concept.
Matt Strunk: Yeah.
Ben Haas: It's, it is so natural, like fear. I mean, it's biology, right? We are programmed to feel that danger and now want to avoid that.
I'm just wondering if we can go back to maybe some of your story then, how did you really recognize that fear was maybe driving you to the wrong direction or may maybe even better? What helped you kind of recalibrate after that experience?
Matt Strunk: So I think I realized it with like the fifth business when I'm like.
Ben Haas: The fourth wasn't enough. Had to go to fourth. Yeah.
Matt Strunk: Yep. And I I think it was because I was hitting a point of like burnout, feel over and over again. Like it's cyclical. Like I would do all these things, exit, come back to like not a whole lot to do. So then I'd ramp back up and exit and it was just [00:12:00] very extreme one way or the other. And I actually have a coach myself that I work with, and we were kind of talking through it and it was huh. Maybe we like, maybe I should dive into this more. So I had made it my point that, that was my business was to figure out what the hell is going on here. Like psychologically, why am I doing the things I'm doing? And that took me down a path, like I said, you know, reading books, videos, coaching, therapy, spiritual framework, like just everything.
I'm just like going in as a open-minded scientist of sorts. I want to explore why, psychologically, we do the things we do or I'm doing the things I'm doing. And in that process I started to uncover some of the reasons behind my actions weren't the surface level reasons I thought they were. You know, so the reasons I would've given you as to why I was doing what I was doing, it wasn't actually the real reason.
Once I started peeling it back. And when I did peel it back and I identified the root cause. It was very freeing [00:13:00] because you could immediately get visibility into like, like, whoa, okay. Like what am I doing here? Like, okay, this is starting to make sense now because I uncovered the real why of what was driving me, you know?
And then I was able to reverse engineer that and start looking at my life to see like, all right. If this is what's driving me, and I know that's not true, what is important to me, and I literally went through the process of identifying my core values again, and not the ones that just look good on your wall like everyone does.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. I love family and friends. Like it's always the same. No, like what do I care about? Even if I was like, the thing that I value is helping snail farmers. Who gives it that shit? Like, that's it, man. Snow farmers, it is like, it doesn't matter, but what are your actual values? What are you trying to gain outta your life?
Identify those things, write them down, validate 'em, and now look at your life and go, is this serving this vision? And if it's not, then let's identify the areas that aren't aligned. So I went through that whole [00:14:00] process, I guess over probably course of six months to a year maybe. And identified a lot of areas where I was not in alignment and worked towards start, you know, starting to fix those things and move towards better alignment.
Ben Haas: Sounds like great advice, like a very attention, intentional approach to exposing yourself to everything that you probably should have been exposing yourself to earlier, but at the same time challenging your own kind of like negative thoughts. The intentionality, it reminds me a little bit, so maybe you've heard this too, Warren Buffet, you know, if we're, this is a financial podcast.
Yeah, of course. Talk about Buffett for a second. He gave this exercise, I don't know how long ago it was. I probably heard it maybe four or five years ago. Not that we were going through the same thing, but post COVID, like I was really reevaluating me and my business too. And what he had said as a great exercise is write your obituary.
Matt Strunk: Yeah. Yep.
Ben Haas: Like, what would you want it to say? And then be very intentional about trying to live that way. And to your point, like I, I went through that process of like, okay, yeah, family, friends, like this is how I wanna spend my [00:15:00] time. But you get a lot more specific when you think, what would you want other people to say about you though?
Right? And it really does shape maybe the way that you're approaching things.
Matt Strunk: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny 'cause even when if you work with individuals and you start working towards that, it's amazing how clear things become so quickly, you know, something that seems so easy. It's just hard I think for a lot of us to do that ourselves because you have blind spots and, you know, it's hard to do those things.
But yeah it's just amazing how much clarity you can gain with not a ton of effort. You know, just actually asking the questions and trying to be real about it.
Ben Haas: Yeah. But then you gotta like, give yourself a lot of credit for getting yourself to that spot where you're willing to not only explore that, but seek the help to do it.
Because I'm wondering, you know, for people that, let's go back to just running a business, being responsible for things that, certainly the experience that you had, there are so many other people around you that rely on you, that look to you for leadership, that if you're showing some sort of weakness [00:16:00] or your fear of something and you're expressing that, or you're seeking help that you may, I don't know, self-image, like you're looking at that as some sort of weakness that you need to hide and that's why you're gonna grind it out. So I'm wondering how many people are out there, hopefully listen to this podcast, that the first thing they need to do is get that little nudge to just talk about it, start exploring it.
Matt Strunk: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think more than most would initially admit, I think, you know, like you had mentioned about even post COVID, like there's so many business owners. I mean, my god damn near all of them. Like at some point you think to yourself, is this what I want to keep doing? Yeah.
Ben Haas: What the hell am I doing here?
Matt Strunk: Yeah. At some point you think, what What could I sell this for? And how much, you know, like at some point you think about those things and I guess what we're saying is add to the mix is to, maybe even an annual exercise, even if you're doing annual goals or whatever, like just do a vision statement for your life.
Do your end of life obituary. Like, do those exercises, run through 'em, document them, write it [00:17:00] down, compare it to last year. See where you're at and you know, keep it objective. I think it's scary if you, you think like, oh, if I do that I have to like make all these like no.
We're just observing. We're being curious. It's an input. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yep. And then we have stuff to look at. That's all. But to your point, you know, just be open to that and just start looking at areas in your life that may be aren't quite in alignment. And you probably know in your gut, your intuition stay says what those things are, you know?
Ben Haas: Yeah. And I realize again, we're maybe speaking from a perspective here of people that have maybe some abundance or they've kind of worked their way into that spot, but I think it's probably true for everybody. If you can recognize that there is this like end of life illusion, we talk about this with certain clients, right?
It's very hard for them to do planning because it's hard for them to imagine them being different than they are today. Yeah. Like this, how I am today is how I'll always be. Things won't change. So I need to operate under this vacuum, this silo of information. It's very foolish approach. Yeah. But we have to admit it's, it [00:18:00] is hard.
It is hard to sometimes look beyond what we perceive right now. And that's also what we're kind of challenging people to do, right? To think about what's gonna serve you, but how that may adapt over time. And that's why those check-ins are so important.
Matt Strunk: Yeah. Yep. I would agree. and I think identifying the life you're living and who's, whose life is that?
Like someone that once told me, like, anytime you think or say should, it's probably someone else's voice.
Someone you're like, well, you know, I should probably do this thing, or, you know, I should really do. Ooh, who's saying that? Is that you or is that like Mr. Marble Stone from the eighth grade?
You know, like, who's saying should and why, like. Let's like reframe that. Like even just being aware of that. Be aware of every time you think I should, and then catch that and evaluate why you're saying that. And you'd probably be amazed at how many things we do. We're just like, well, I should probably go do this, you know, and it's like, why should I do that?
Maybe I shouldn't, like end of the day, if it's not servicing my life the way I wanna live it, then [00:19:00] should I do it? You know who, who came with that? Yeah. I didn't agree to this game. Who wrote the rule book? I never got any input on this. You know?
Ben Haas: That's an awesome tidbit. So I'm curious in, in your, as you went through that process, over a couple months of doing the research that you did, reading books, like what, are there other little tips and tricks that you kind of gleaned from that?
A favorite book? A favorite exercise, you know, what really resonated with you as you were going through that?
Matt Strunk: Oh, man, that's a good question. A few things. I'll give you a couple different answers, a couple different things. One, you said book have you ever read the book Die With Zero? Are you familiar with that book?
Ben Haas: No. Okay. I've heard of it. That's, it's probably not on the shelf behind me that you can't you can't.
Matt Strunk: I don't know that it aligns with your business model fully, but basically the concept of this book is that you should die with no money. Yeah. And if you don bounce your,
Ben Haas: we call that success. If you bounce your last track, you
Matt Strunk: did it
Ben Haas: right.
Matt Strunk: Exactly. Yep. Like he would argue, don't wait until you die to give inheritance. Do it before you die. Like start doing it so you can enjoy those [00:20:00] things. And if you die with an extra X dollars and that is a representation of the time you wasted in your life, not doing some sort of experience. 'Cause otherwise you traded your time for that resource and you don't have it anymore, you know?
So I thought that was an interesting perspective which really helped me. It helps frame like, why are you doing it? Why are you accumulating more? Why are you doing whatever if it’s not in service of your life? And Die was Zero, I think was a cool book for that. But I think the, this is probably the single most impactful thing I did was I started meditating, which is really freaking hard.
I don't know if you meditate at all, have you've ever done that kind of stuff or not, but man
Ben Haas: stuff. I like to hike, you know, that's my quiet space. But it's, I think it speaks to probably just the person that you are too. You're super productive, you're super thoughtful. It's hard to turn all of that off.
Yeah.
Matt Strunk: And that's,
Ben Haas: I bet you're like me. You don't sit still well.
Matt Strunk: No I do not. Yeah. And that's, I think exactly, exactly why that was so powerful. And, you know, I'm a very all [00:21:00] or nothing kind of person, which I'm trying to work on as well. So like, when I start thinking about I should meditate, I'm like, all right.
I do an hour a day, you know, maybe hour twice a day for seven days a week. We go to the temple like this monk temple once a month. Like it's way extreme. Like, no, just do like a minute, one minute every morning or something, you know? But I bring that up because some of the most powerful insights in my life have come from when it's quiet.
Ben Haas: Yeah.
Matt Strunk: When I stop the noise, I stop thinking, I stop producing and I just look inward, and try to figure out what's actually true, if that makes sense. And so many of those answers that I was looking for with like books and videos and this and that, so many of it was answered just by looking in. I'm looking out there, I'm looking for external validation.
I'm looking for make more money or to make businesses. I'm looking for these books and do this. And all I needed to do is shhh. And just listen to yourself. A lot [00:22:00] of very valuable insight lives right within you if you're willing to listen to it and remove the distractions long enough to do so.
Ben Haas: So I imagine, I mean, it's great to hear that you can do that in one minute. I am. I imagine. I imagine the environment matters though.
Matt Strunk: Yeah. So one of my favorite meditation spots is in our guest bedroom closet. Because I'm not very good at it, so I can't do it like in loud, kids running around. So I'm just like, Hey, honey, I'll be back.
I'm going into the closet and I'm like, go lock myself in the closet and just sit there for a couple minutes trying to clear my mind. And yeah it's a challenge, you know, but again, try not to chase perfection and just try to do anything. And yeah I found that to become easier with time, but it's still a challenge to, to make space for it, you know?
Ben Haas: Sure.
Matt Strunk: To find a closet and get quiet.
Ben Haas: So as we maybe, you know, try to summarize some of this maybe give me your one or two things that you would want everyone to kind of take away from this, and then we should certainly wrap up with letting [00:23:00] people know how they can find you if they wanna follow up on this.
Matt Strunk: Yeah. I think one or two things. So I would say, I would challenge everyone, regardless of your situation. Maybe you own a business, maybe you don't. Maybe you're working some, it doesn't matter. I challenge you to reevaluate today what matters to you in life. Let's get straight on that. What's your core values?
What do you want your life to look like? And write it down. Make it real and don't, it's not about perfection. Again, just write it down. We're just curious. I think if you did just that, it would make a lot of, it would make a lot of difference for a lot of people. And kind of hand in hand with that is increasing awareness then.
So, all right, here's the life I want to live. I'm gonna go live my life now, and I'm gonna try to tune up my awareness or opportunities where maybe it's not in alignment, you know, or maybe things when I'm starting to feel upset, I'm just gonna be aware of like, why is that happening? Instead of just allowing the [00:24:00] emotion to take over my body, you know?
And then with that awareness and with your new found vision, you can start to craft a path forward with intention where instead of just doing things 'cause you should do them or because it's what you are taught, you're doing them in a service of the life that you want to live. And as long as you're making intentional decisions, I think that'll take you a, to a much better place than a lot
of people are in who are kind of on autopilot doing the things they should do. 'Cause that's what they were told they should do. You know?
Ben Haas: I love it and it's such a good prerequisite to the work that we try to do here. 'cause to kind of wrap up on my side, we want to help people live that life.
We can't craft what that is to them, right? We can ask questions like, I want to hear what are you trying to accomplish? But I don't want that to be retirement at 65, 'cause what does that mean? Like, what are we returning to? I don't want people. Making all this money and then dying unhappy.
Right? So the work that you're trying to do and help people kind of identify those things, [00:25:00] it's very helpful to then make the money work for it. So I appreciate you sharing all that. How can people find you, Matt? What's the best way to find you if they wanna continue a conversation like this?
Matt Strunk: So they can go, I have a website called illumashift.com, so that's I-L-L-U-M-I shift.com. And that's my coaching brand where you can schedule a free discovery call and just to connect and chat. It's what that's for. And then LinkedIn is really where I spend a lot of my time otherwise. So just my name, Matthew Strunk on LinkedIn.
You can find me there. Those are probably the two best places to find me as of now.
Ben Haas: Yeah. And if you don't get back to 'em right away, you're probably in the closet meditating.
Matt Strunk: Exactly. Yep. Gimme about 60 or 90 seconds. I'll be back.
Ben Haas: Matt, this was awesome. I really appreciate you being generous with your time.
It's clearly a topic that we are both passionate about, so I'm glad you're willing to share some of those nuggets and uh, really comes down to just hoping people get that nudge to reach out if they're just not feeling it.
Yeah, definitely. Whether it's your face or not.
Matt Strunk: Yep. Yeah. Appreciate it man.
Thanks for the time. It's always a pleasure. [00:26:00]
Ben Haas: You got it.
Hey everyone, Adam and I really appreciate you tuning in. Please note that the opinions we voiced in the show are for general information only, and are not intended to provide specific recommendations for any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be most appropriate for you, consult with your attorney, your accountant, and financial advisor, or tax advisor prior to making any decisions or investing. Thanks for listening.
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